Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka

Throwing rocks and bricks at soldiers and police officers?

I used to sympathize and support them, but when they start acting like Palestinians, all support disappears.

The settlers are finally waking up to realize who the secular so called Israeli government is. We of the orthodox community have always known the Israeli governments hidden agenda to destroy Torah yiddishkeit. Just today they had forced an dead 89 year old religious woman to undergo a forced autopsy despite her families opposition. This type of evil behavior was done back in the 1970s as forced autopsy's were being conducted everywhere. It was the famous world war two Liutenant American army war hero Rosenbaum who secretly snapped pictures of dead body parts scattered in Israeli morgues.And it was the Satmer rallies and yeshiva world here in America that put the pressure on the anti religious Israeli government to halt the forced autopsy's by plastering NYC streets and subways with pictures of cut up body parts.The settlers have been duped by their leaders and whats most interesting there isnt one gadol Hador in America or Israel that supports their brand of Judaism.I just returned from Israel and after speaking to many of the settler youth they are slowly coming to grips that only Torah leaders are the ones who's guidance they must seek.

Nothing justifies violence against fellow Jews.

And the autopsy was ordered because the woman was murdered.

AUTOPSYS ARE AGAINST JEWISH LAW.EVEN IN NEW yORK IN MURDER CASES INVOLVED WITH ORTHODOX VICTIMS THEY ARE USUALLY JUST PHOTAGRAPHED AND NOT CUT UP. One such case was the meir kahane killing. No auttopsy was done due to Rabbis intervention with politicians.

check your info.

If police came at me with metal clubs and horses and started beating me mercilesly, I would throw bricks as well.

In other words - THE POLICE STARTED IT!

If the police came at me with metal clubs and horses then I'd leave the area where I was illegaly squatting.

If the police came at me with metal clubs and horses then I'd leave the area where I was illegaly squatting.

Nothing illigal about Jews settling the land of Israel. This is a political move, not a legal one.

In lawschool, did you ever hear of the term "police brutality"?

Strange, the government said that it was illegal.

As for police brutality, if someone throws a cinder block at a police officer, the guy should be considered lucky if he isn't shot.

I don't care if you say the police attacked first.

Strange, the government said that it was illegal.

Strange, they didn't do anything about the 50,000 illigal Arab houses in the Galil and the Negev. One has no halachic responsibility to follow civil Laws that are not enforced in a just manner.

I don't care if you say the police attacked first.

Well then, I guess justice is not important to law students.

Guess what! The Israeli government doesn't care if you have a valid halachik reason for ignoring the law!

Guess what! The Israeli government doesn't care if you have a valid halachik reason for ignoring the law!

Guess what, I don't have to care what the Israeli government thinks. If they leave me alone, they will be left alone. Until then they have to start realizing that a sizable part of their population considers Torah law to be above the law of the land. If they want to ignore that reality, then we will have an even bloodier conflict on our hands.

And people like you will lose. It's simply a numbers game. There are a lot more Jews in Israel that support and respect the rule of law than those that think that Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is more important than everything else.

Wait and see. You go with the numbers and I will go with Hashem. In the long-term you might win some battles but those who go with Hashem will win the war.

There are a lot more Jews in Israel that support and respect the rule of law than those that think that Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is more important than everything else.

Oh, and BTW, its not just Yishuv Eretz Yisoel. I would expect believing Jews to resist any attempt to keep them from performing ANY of the mitzvot.

Why do you automaticaly assume that God is on your side? Perhaps He wants the outposts evacuated?

Why do you automaticaly assume that God is on your side?

Uh, because He put a mitzvah in the Torah to settle the land. Because, as a religious Jew, I think that He is on the side that is for Torah and not the one which is systematically against.

Are you trying to tell me that the government has an halachic right to kick Jews out of their homes for no reason?

But there are halachic considerations of dina demalchusa. As important as yishuv ha'aretz is, you can't expect to just "go and do it whenever/whereever" and that Hashem will watch over you. If you were right, every Jew over time should have just gone and settled down.

But there are halachic considerations of dina demalchusa.

This does not apply for 2 reasons.

a) Dina deMalchuta has no application when it contradicts a Torah law

b) Dina deMalchuta is only applicable when the law is enforced equally amond the population - the Arabs have build 50,000 illigal structures and the government does not lift a finger.

Gotta go. I doubt I will concinve anyone here. I am pretty confident however that if any of you lived in Israel (or have lived there in the past 10 years), you would probably see things differently.

I have, and almost all of my relatives and family friends do as well: And some of the most RW Charedim among them would disagree (and they're no stiffs in the Charedi community, either).

Chardal,

After what happend in Gaza, do you expect soliders and police officers to show up without batons? Without protection? Should they sit around and wait for the "protests" of thrown bricks and acid in Gaza to occur again before protecting themselves?

Saying the police started it draws an arbitrary line, before which we don't look at history. In Gaza, the most recent and analogous situation, the protesters were hardly harmless. And the police paid the price.

Also:
Chardal: "Gotta go. I doubt I will concinve anyone here. I am pretty confident however that if any of you lived in Israel (or have lived there in the past 10 years), you would probably see things differently."

That just means "I'm right, and if I can't convince you, its because you're not listening." Aside from the logical fallacy, its quite insulting.

I'll have you know, I did live in Israel for two years, within the last ten, and they were spent in the West Bank. And I don't see why you place the blame on people throwing bricks at soldiers and police who show up with batons (and who wouldn't need to use them unless required) and not those who threw the bricks.

Do you blame the Palestinian shot for throwing a rock because the soldier was first carrying a gun?

And yes, the government hasn't done much for the illegal palestinian dwellings, but that doesn't mean the law isn't applied equally. There are other considerations which may detract from the ability to destroy 50,000 palestinian homes. Finances being but one.

Chardal, I live in Israel, and you're not convincing me.